All you need to know about apprenticeships

Transcript

Owen-Marshall Jones: That's sort of really stereotypical idea of an apprentice, and you're making the teas, you're making the coffees. As soon as I'd got on the system, got used to what software we're using, you're straight into guilt.

Erin McKelvey: I'm Erin. I am a talent attraction manager at Forvis Mazars.

Holly Slater: I'm Holly Slater. I'm the early careers partner at Jisc.

Owen-Marshall Jones: My name's Owen. I work at Jisc. I'm a digital marketing apprentice, but I finished the summer just gone.

Matthew Farrow: My name's Matthew Farrow. I'm a practice consultant today working for Gleeds.

Welcome to Future You, the student and careers advice podcast brought to you by prospects. We help you choose the right degree, find the perfect career and transition smoothly into life after study. From A-level results to starting your new job, we're with you every step of the way on your journey to Future You.

Emily Slade: So I guess to begin with, is it still a myth? Or is it true that people look down on apprenticeships compared to the formal education university route?

Erin McKelvey: I think that's changed completely. I think that was the case many years ago and I think it's really changing because the value of apprentices, all the statistics and research though, that apprentices take more time, take more investment, but actually are a bigger resource to the firm because they're more likely to stay with your organisation longer term. So actually you're building your future workforce in a way that graduates are a little bit more mobile, they tend to jump around between jobs, so do school leavers who've done apprenticeships. but they're likely to stay longer. So actually people are viewing it as an opportunity to really think about growing your talent and growing your leadership teams in 10, 20 years, who you recruit now. And I also think the skills have changed so dramatically. I think previously apprenticeships were in more vocational skills. And so it was seen as, this is what you do if you don't want to go to university. I actually think it's just being seen as an alternative to university now.

Emily Slade: There's still different types of apprenticeships. You've got the degree apprenticeship.

Erin McKelvey: Absolutely. So you've got your vocational apprenticeships. You've got your different levels. So you can do level 2, 3, 4, 5. Level 6 is degree equivalent and level 7 is a master's equivalent. So you've really got that range and you can start and build up. It's not as if If you go in at a level 4 apprenticeship, that is you at that kind of steer. But it also means that if you're not sure what you want to do, you can start there, build up your skills and expertise. And then if you decide, actually, this is what I want to specialise in, you can work up to that in the same way. And some people are always like, oh, it has to be a level 7. I don't even think that's the case because it depends on what you want to do. So I studied French and journalism at university and like, actually, To be a journalist, you do not need a university degree. You need the skills of being able to speak to people and being able to write things compellingly and factually report or give your opinion. You can do an apprenticeship in journalism now because actually that makes more sense in those skills, but you don't need a degree equivalent to do that necessarily. So it's all about the role you're doing as well.

Holly Slater: And so from the employer point of view.

Emily Slade: feel like even five years ago, it felt like everybody needed a degree to get a job. Is it now? Are we starting to see job applications that are more an apprenticeship equivalent?

Erin McKelvey: Absolutely. And I think that's the thing is it used to be that your degree was currency. Didn't matter what the subject in the same way, it was that currency, that entry into the door or step in the door. I think now it's very much actually it's the skills because everyone has a degree now. It's the skills that are focused on. And actually, when you're doing a level 7 equivalent, it's the equivalent to a degree, or you can get a degree apprenticeship. For business hours offer a level 7, which is a degree equivalent. They're a fully qualified accountant. They are the exact same as someone who finishes their degree, comes and joins us, does a three-year course, and then qualifies. But this person's doing it at 21. Yeah. And employers, I think, are looking more and more at those skills. and then the qualifications that back it. But when you look at entry requirements, things have changed really dramatically as well. I think it's a lot more inclusive in a lot of workplaces. It's no longer looking at you need these UCAS requirements. Yes, some places have them and there's basic academic requirements that are needed, you know, that C grade in maths and English, et cetera. But I think people are looking more about those transferable skills and actually your situation and you as a whole person rather than you as a set of data.

Emily Slade: Yeah, completely.

Erin McKelvey: And I think as well, Once you've got your apprenticeship, it's the equivalent of having any other qualification. It's what you pull out from it. So they're saying now that Gen Z on average have 17 different jobs and five to six careers across their lifetime. So I think about it, I started as a teacher. I moved into early careers recruitment and I've stayed there, but I've also diversified into marketing and different things like that. And again, It's always been about those transferable skills. And the story I tell with that, and I think that's the same with apprenticeships, is actually what story are you wanting to tell? How are you wanting to build on that experience? What are you wanting to take from it and move with it? And I think that's the key thing with them is that it's a qualification like any other qualification. And I think when you hear the word apprenticeship, you're like, oh, well, this means I'm pigeonholed into this. It absolutely doesn't. It's the same as having an A level in something or a BTech or a degree. It's just a different level of qualification.

Holly Slater: Yeah, that makes sense. I would say the most common misconception about apprenticeships is people tend to think that they may not be as academic or as highly regarded as going to university, which is absolutely not the case. I mean, at Jisc, we offer both apprenticeship and graduate schemes because we see the value of both. So there's no real difference in the quality of apprenticeships versus degrees, but I think there's just this stigma around them. So another one would be that people think apprenticeships are only for people who finish school or that kind of age range, which again is not the case. I know the government are doing a lot to encourage younger people to go into apprenticeships, but they're also a fantastic opportunity for people to re-skill in different areas. And Jisc again, We have many people who are studying an apprenticeship alongside their permanent full-time role, because they're wanting, as I say, to either re-skill or maybe even develop the current skills that they've got even further. So I think age is often a misconception as well.

Emily Slade: Yeah, oh, brilliant.

Owen-Marshall Jones: Misconception that apprenticeship is an easy ride, because I feel like I get the impression sometimes of people that haven't done one, and it's what I hear all the time about when I did one, is that like, it's too good to be true. It's easy then because like your degree is paid for, you're getting paid, but like they're sort of like the on paper elements of it, but like they're not really the full picture because it's like affecting you as a person.

Matthew Farrow: So I don't think many people quite mention how tough it can be. Obviously there's periods where you're like, this is amazing. I'm getting paid, my degree is paid for, look at everyone else paying off the student debt. But on the other hand, there's Yeah, the too good to be true side is true sometimes, but then there's parts of it where you're like, oh my God, this is so full on, like I've got so much uni work to do. I've got so much work to do. How am I going to do this? But yeah, I think highlighting the fact that if you're going to do a degree apprenticeship, be ready to work hard, be ready to graft. No, nothing's going to get put on a plate for you. It's up to your proactivity and your time management to get to where you want to be.

Emily Slade: One of the pros, arguably, for university is the like uni life aspect of it. And that's definitely changed over the past like 10 years even. But do you feel you're missing out on anything that offers, the campus life, the like the party side, the social side?

Owen-Marshall Jones: I think that's once again down to what you make of it and like making the most of it because you could go to uni, but then sort of isolate yourself and study or just sort of go back to your dorm and not do much. But then I know with me on mine, we would often hang out with my friends in the class and we'd go for drinks, go for food after uni. So I think it's what you make of it either way. So I think just because you go down traditional uni route, it doesn't mean you'll make the most of your social life there because you might take it for granted. Whereas I think you form quite quite a close bond with your class in a degree apprenticeship especially, or even a level 4 or level 3 apprenticeship because you're all working towards the same goal and you've all got jobs, you're all learning different skills, learning how to be in a corporate job maybe. So I think you sort of bond like closer and quicker I found, and you meet people of all ages because all ages can do apprenticeships. So I think at uni you're sort of around the same age group, mainly traditional route, whereas people of all ages in my class and you can sort of see how the trajectory they've gone down and learn mistakes and them and learn lessons. So I think, yeah, I think you definitely don't lose. So if you want the social life from doing a degree apprenticeship or any apprenticeship, you can have it. You just maybe have to try a little bit harder than if you're on campus like all day, yeah.

Matthew Farrow: Yeah, 100%. I mean, I sometimes I sit there and I think, oh, I wish I'd go into university. I wish I'd seeing outside of life. Because most people you ask about university are like, oh, it's the best three, five years of my life. And sometimes you could be like, am I missing out on that? And naturally, you are going to feel like you are missing out because the social life you get at university is really fun. But it can also be quite relentless as well. As you know, people go to university, probably barely ever see a lecturer because they're too busy recovery. But no, I definitely agree with your point, that you can easily have that social life. in an apprenticeship, like I go out after work all plenty of times, almost every Thursday sometimes with my team. And I think if you work in a team all day and you're all working towards that mutual goal and you succeed at that goal and you celebrate with work drinks, I think that sense of community and that sense of like team. It's you can't get that university, you can't get that with many things, you know, you've all worked together and then you're all celebrating together and then you're on to the next task. There's no slowing down, it's always on to the next task. So yeah, well, sometimes you do feel like you're missing out. But again, for me personally, it's definitely more I like my social life, I like the balance, I like working hard and then also having the opportunity to go out, enjoy it. And also. you've got a bit more money in your pocket, you can go probably to nicer places. No, not some of the places that you probably get stuck in university that you're just there because it's cheap. Like you can go to nicer places, do nicer things.

Emily Slade: What's one piece of advice that you would give to somebody who's torn between going down the university path or the apprenticeship path?

Holly Slater: It's not necessarily that one is better than the other. So you know, you can take that out of your consideration straight away. they're both very different choices. I would say listen to your instinct and try not to be pressured by what other people are telling you to do. This is your decision and if it is university, it could be three years, could be 4 if you're doing a masters or a year abroad. Same with an apprenticeship, if it's a level 6 or above, could be four years. That's a long time to spend doing something that you don't enjoy or that you feel like you've been pushed into. So when you're looking at both options and you're a little bit torn, write a pros and cons list. Get all of the information down about what you think is beneficial of doing an apprenticeship and what's not, and also what's beneficial of doing at university, going to university. and not, and really helping that to decide for you. Because as I say, it's a long time to do something where your passion isn't there. So just make sure that at the end of the day, it's your choice and you're happy with it, because that's the most important thing.

Emily Slade: So what made you choose the apprenticeship route in the first place?

Matthew Farrow: I mean, without sounding cliche, there were so many advantages to an apprenticeship that I just couldn't ignore. So But obviously the lack of debt, the experience, the sort of career progression that you can get without going to university. By the time most people have finished university, we've got the same amount of experience. Well, we've got experience that they wouldn't have had in them years, which is just, yeah, to me, and I just want a hands-on role. Yeah, that allowed me to work and study at the same time. And whilst it is quite a lot, it's, yeah. It's really good.

Owen-Marshall Jones: I think during school and college, it wasn't really on my mind to go down the traditional route going to uni, but I looked at the financial aspect of it and the debt and I just thought the apprenticeship route suited me more because I didn't initially want to go to university. Then with the finances on top, someone mentioned it to me in college and like a lot of people, I originally thought it was sort of the hands-on apprenticeship, so the engineering sort of that line. But then when I looked on different websites, I realised there's quite a lot of industries and I just started applying then after that, yeah.

Matthew Farrow: So obviously when you were applying for your apprenticeships, was there anything that you were like, because obviously probably similar to me when I first started applying for apprenticeships, even before I did this one, I did a different apprenticeship and I didn't really know what I wanted to do. So it was like, was there something you wanted to do or like an area that you wanted to work in?

Owen-Marshall Jones: Yeah, so originally I actually mainly did sort of product design and graphic design in college and then upon searching on like apprenticeship websites, government website, I quickly realised there wasn't many out there. There was either graphic designer job title or product designer job title. So that's when I did some research and find out what roles they can sort of go into in a wider area. And I came across marketing. And as soon as I put that keyword in on the website, instantly there was roles. Yeah. So You've sort of got to know the market in a way and know what... And then as soon as I went on the marketing apprenticeships, I realised the skill set was actually my skill set. I was just sort of naive and younger at the time and didn't know what job titles were and what the market was. And as soon as I did, the search completely changed the... It went from one to two roles to 20 to 30. Yeah. And what about you?

Matthew Farrow: How did you decide what you wanted to do? So prior to my current apprenticeship now, I did apprenticeship in sales for a year, but in the construction industry. So I worked in sales of concrete. And whilst that role definitely wasn't for me in terms of the role, the sales side of it, not really my type of role, but again, similar to you, it was like my first. I'd just finished college and I was like, right, I need to get myself an apprenticeship. So it's kind of got a few different offers in different roles, but I landed on the sales one. And then, yeah, that made me realise I want to work in construction. So off the back of that, looked into different roles. So obviously you've got project management or quantity surveying are sort of two of the main roles within construction. And I thought, looked at it and thought quantity surveying more catered to my skill set.

Emily Slade: So what was the application process like?

Matthew Farrow: So it was a bit probably a bit different to what the normal conventional route is where you probably got like 3, four months, you apply, you go to maybe like a, what are they called? Like an assessment center. Yeah, you go to an assessment center and then maybe off the back of that you'll have another interview and off the back of that, you know, it can be quite a vigorous process. But for me, for the company I currently work for, sort of leads on to a bit of other advices like it's never, obviously there's periods where you've got at the start of the year where it's good to apply for apprenticeships. But for me, it was quite short and obvious. It was like, right, I had a few different quality surveying offers, but I knew they weren't really for me. So I found Gleeds, applied within about a week of applying. They message me saying, well, he's coming next week to do a presentation, pick one of our projects, do a presentation on it. And then literally did that, thought it went quite well, didn't hear back. And then I was on the way on holiday and got a phone call from Gleeds and they went, yeah, we really like you. We wonder if you want the role. So yeah, for me it was a no-brainer. Second I got that phone call, accepted it on spot. I knew it was the one.

Emily Slade: Amazing. And what about you? What was your application process?

Owen-Marshall Jones: I was just relentless really. I was like going all year long and it got to the point where I was applying for that many that I couldn't tell which e-mail or phone call was about which one. But That was sort of the mindset I was in. I was just relentless going at them and not sort of like putting all your eggs in one basket. And I feel like that's how I started. I was, I'd apply for one and I'd leave the process. I'd think, all right, okay, I'll wait to hear back from that one. But I quickly realised it can take months. It can take two, three months, depending on how long away they are from actually hiring. So I applied for a Jisc apprenticeship and I just got a phone call about probably say about a month later. So once again, it's quite a while after you initially apply and they said I got the role. And I think considering I was probably slightly underqualified and the fact that I was sort of getting offered interviews and stuff, it does show it's not just about the hard skills, it's about the soft skills, how you perform in the interview. And mine was just an online interview. I'm pretty sure it was only one interview, but it was quite an intense interview and You did need to do company research, etcetera, and sort of, especially because I was probably slightly underqualified, sort of justify your skills a bit more and be a bit more creative as you know you've not black and white got like the elements you need, like the grades, etcetera.

Emily Slade: How did you stay motivated in these gaps in this long period of the application process? Were you working or were you just like refreshing your?

Owen-Marshall Jones: Yeah, so I was working at the time purely to stack my CV for like the roles I was applying for. I'd kind of say like maybe a bit cliche, I'd like lacking motivation, but it was more discipline than it was motivation. So regardless of my mood that day, I had to apply. It was sort of like a, it was, it became just like a ritual, like it was like a habit that every morning I check, every time, whether you're on a bus, on the train, passenger in a car, it's literally, that's what it was like for me. And Obviously the market has changed a lot over the last few years, but I think they are in competitive. So I think you've got to be, you can't sort of like apply or sort of when you, when you feel like it, when you're in the mood for it, it's the role you like might not be there when you're in the mood. So it's got to be, it's got to be relentless. So I was doing it every day, downtime, my lunches before work, sat in the car. Yeah, so.

Emily Slade: Almost treating it like a part-time job.

Owen-Marshall Jones: Yeah, it essentially took over more brain power than my actual job was taken over, but That was because I knew how competitive we were and that's what I was striving for. It was literally just a sort of like a milestone job to get me to that. So I kept that in the back of my mind that I'm in this to get this apprenticeship. So that's what I'm working towards.

Emily Slade: How can an applicant make their application stand out?

Holly Slater: Making sure that one. They read the entire job description and everything that we kind of ask for within there. So any entry requirements and stuff like that, just making sure that they fit the brief. They don't have to meet all of the criteria, but just making sure that, you know, like 50 plus percent is met. And then also making use of showcasing their physical or technical skills as well as their soft skills. I think a lot of people forget how to present soft skills in the CV. especially if they don't have necessarily any formal work experience. But what I would always recommend is including any extracurricular clubs you've been part of, if you've been part of a sports team or played a sport, making sure you list that, as well as any school clubs. So for example, in school clubs, sports, extracurricular activities, you'll probably be using communication skills, you'll be using team building skills, building rapport with people, building resilience, especially if you play sports. So make sure you include that in your applications because that's going to showcase some of the skills that actually employers are looking for as well as those kind of technical skills or I suppose the qualifications people want to see as well. Yeah, absolutely. So there's ways to stand out in a good way. And there's also ways that you can stand out in a negative way during the application process. And one of the things I wanted to kind of discuss is AI. And that is quite a hot topic in recruitment and applications at the moment. And I'm not saying don't use AI. I'm not against AI. I think it's a really, really helpful tool. But what I would say is just check if a company has a policy on AI. I know some companies, for example, encourage AI in applications. Others explicitly say, please don't use it. So I just say, you know, respect those company wishes and, you know, if that works for you, great, apply for them. But if you really love AI and want to put that in your application, then maybe if a company restricts that, it might not be worse for you. But when I say it can make your application stand out in a bad way, what I'm referring to is basically getting AI to write your CV, which Unfortunately, we do see. And when we do see it, it's really, really clear and obvious. So although AI is a really, really good technique and software to use, use it in the right way. So, you know, there's no harm in putting a job advert into AI and saying, can you showcase all of the qualifications that I would need to apply for this? job? Or can you explicitly tell me which key skills they're really looking for? And then you can make sure that you're hitting all of the marks you need to when applying for that role. As well, using it for application processes. So for example, interviews, if you've got an interview coming up, by all means, put the company details in that ChatGPT or whatever AI you're using and say, I've applied for this role, please can you come up with five questions that I might get in an interview? And that's a really good way of preparing yourself for an interview using AI in the right way as well.

Emily Slade: Yeah, absolutely. Because can they tell, like not only is it obvious that this has been written by AI, but a lot of recruitment now can run it through a system that immediately is just like, yeah, this was 90% AI.

Holly Slater: Yeah, so some Some companies do differ. Some will actually use like techniques where they'll find AI, but it can be quite tricky because I've heard some people who are potentially neurodiverse or have a certain writing style can be picked up as using AI when actually, yeah, I haven't. It's just their writing style. So it's not always that, but it's just When you read a CV that's clearly submitted just solely using AI where they haven't even checked whether it's American spelling or any mistakes or anything that just reads inhuman, it just means that the company don't actually know who they're going to be potentially employing. They're not seeing the real candidate. And it can potentially showcase some areas where you may not necessarily have the skills that AI has how would you say, like maybe fluffed up a little bit in your application. So it's, that's the kind of main reason why I would say stay away from using it as a tool for just writing the CV. By all means, if you want to use it to write a section and then take it away and go, right, how can I make this more me? How can I add in what I want to That sounds robotic. It hasn't actually caught the passion or drive that I really have. How do I add that? That's fine as well. But always, always check the company policy, whether they have one.

Erin McKelvey: I think that's where people fall down is I'm going to get AI to do it. Use it as a tool. It is a tool. But when people then use it, everyone's getting very similar applications. So now it's how can you stand out? And that is that interview piece because people are looking at you as an individual and it's those skills. And it doesn't have to be, because I think one thing where when the AI conversation comes up, it's like, great, so the extroverts are going to win. I'm thinking that. But actually, not always the case, because I think actually the power is those introverted professionals who can communicate.

Holly Slater: It's not all about one communication style as well.

Emily Slade: What's the biggest mistake that applicants make?

Holly Slater: So I would say one of the biggest mistakes, and it is so, simple, is not researching the company. before applying. I'm not saying you need to have, you know, cliff notes on every single company you're going to be applying for, because there's probably going to be quite a few. And I think companies understand you're not putting all of your eggs in one basket and you're not only applying for that role, but try to understand a little bit about what the company do, maybe some of their key services, what's important to them. As I said, you don't have to spend hours and hours trying to research a company. Grab their website, pop it in ChatGPT AI and just say, can you give me 10 facts about this company or what their key services are? And then you've got that information to hand so you can find out a little bit more about them, or you can use those to ask questions at interview level. But showing that interest in the company really shows that you're actually wanting that job and you're not just applying for it for the sake of applying. And it really helps us when we're at interview stage and we're trying to whittle down the best candidates. Those that have shown interest in us and why they want to work for us tend to stand out a little bit more than those who, when we ask them, What do you know about JSC and they say? I don't know. It really, really helps the others to stand out. And as well, You want to be interested in where you're going to work. You don't want to show up day in, day out and not enjoy the company you're working for. Once you've researched the company as well, you might find that they have similar values to you, and that'll really help you to connect to that company. And that'll showcase in your passion when you apply for a job. So if you know, for example, one of our core values is always inclusive, So, having that inclusive environment, that's going to mean a lot to some people. So when they're applying and that's what they're applying for, then they're going to be able to showcase their passion and why they want to work for Jisc. And that's going to help them stand out and against other people.

Emily Slade: Obviously, when you study at university, you don't get paid to do that, unless you pick up a part time job. The whole idea of an apprenticeship is that you earn while you learn. Yes. What How much?

Erin McKelvey: How much? And do you know what? It's a really hard one to answer because different companies pay different things. It depends on how you're breaking the study and the earning as well. On average, and it is very much on average across the sector, apprentices are looking anywhere between 17,000 and 20,000 pounds when they start off. So it is a lower salary. However, the way I always think about it is I think about four business hours at the moment. So a school leaver apprenticeship is 4 years. At the end of those four years, they're a qualified chartered accountant, for example. Someone does a degree, they've got those three years of non-earnings, and then they have a three-year course. So one year into that graduate programme, the school leaver is fully qualified, which means they're on a higher salary. So yes, graduates do start on a higher salary, but that potential, when you think about it as a school leaver, is actually, by the time I'm 22, I will be a fully qualified chartered accountant, which means my earning potential rockets. But also once you're qualified, that salary goes up and then keeps going up and your progression is quicker because by the time you're 25, you've actually got seven years experience versus a grad who has three or four. Because also as a graduate, and obviously everyone's financial situation is different, but most graduates graduate and your salary does not go as far as you think because student loans are taking part of it. And as you progress and your salary goes up, they take just a little bit more each time. So annoying. Actually, you get a pay increase. You don't notice it because it's all gone to the student loan number name. And I also think looking at the companies and looking at what they offer, because if you're doing an apprenticeship, yes, you're on that apprenticeship, you're doing that learning. But what is their learning and development offer outside of that? So we've got LinkedIn Learning. And I know that I've sat next to someone in the office this morning. who was literally doing a Python LinkedIn learning session. They're their second year of order and they're like, I just think it'd be quite useful for like upcoming client work. And I just needed a break because I've just finished exams. I just needed something just outside the day-to-day and I had an hour for learning development. I thought, Python on LinkedIn learning. I was like, Cool. I normally just go on Instagram, put each to their own, but actually that's an additional offering that they're able to do. I watch Netflix. You do you. Exactly. But you think it's looking at that like wider offering as well of like, what are you getting access to? What are the benefits of that firm as well? Like, I don't know, if you go to the gym regularly, if you're getting discounted gym benefits, does that impact your salary as well? So it's looking at it in that bigger picture as well. I think it is really important. Like one place I worked had a Diet Coke fridge. It saved me hundreds. Like little things like that. A Diet Coke fridge.

Emily Slade: So just like Diet Coke on tap, essentially.

Erin McKelvey: Just always refilled. Just diet. No, they also had Coke Zero and full fat, just whatever your Coke preference was, and a very nice coffee machine. The amount of money that I actually saved by having that, and I know it sounds like a really silly benefit, no, the amount of money I'd spend on coffee and like Coke, Diet Coke. On top of everything else that was good from what you were getting. Yeah, exactly. It's giving like, oh, heavies in our ping pong table, but also like, take me to the cook fridge. I will lift next to it and I will be held for myself all the time and I will save myself up to 25 pounds a week. But I think it's looking at that wider package as a whole of like, what learning and development do they offer? How many days annual leave? All of those things paint a bigger picture as well. And I think that's key is If you're doing an apprenticeship, you've got so many options. Like, it's a great time to be looking at an apprenticeship because there are so many different opportunities that you really can be quite selective and really think, this is what I'm looking for and therefore I'm going to do it.

Emily Slade: Yeah, amazing. I'm obsessed with this code. I'm like, how do I, where do I send it? HR? At HR. Please, may we have coke fridge please? So let's focus in on that work-life balance. Like what tips and tricks do you have?

Matthew Farrow: I'd say one thing I haven't quite mastered yet, but his advice I'd definitely give is give yourself enough time to do uni assignments because you could say, oh, I'll do it. I don't know. I'll give myself a week before to do my uni assignment. But that might be, you know, something might happen on site or work. And then that week is then taken up because you have to prioritise that because that means dealing with, you're relied upon to deal with that. So From there, you just give yourself enough time. If you've got downtime, say in work, say an hour or two, or you've got some time on a weekend, I would say do uni work. And also, again, you probably wouldn't know this until you start a degree apprenticeship, but year one can seem like, oh, this is the reason me and it's quite easy. This work isn't, and we go towards the final rate. This is land of four stuff. Why do I need to work with them, like you said? very soon, very quickly, it gets from, okay, right, well, you're in uni now, you've had a year of being a quantity surveyor in my case, you're looking at marketing in your case. Now it's time, you know, show me what you've learned last year, and then they ramp it up, and all of a sudden, it does start going towards your final grade, and you get a bit of a slap in the face of reality of going, this, you've got to start working now, mate. Like, it's time to, you know, don't give yourself a week to do your assignment, give yourself a second it gets set, you know, set out your plan, right? Fridays, afternoons are going to be spent doing a little bit of it, and yeah, just organising your time to the best of your ability and be in control of it. Don't let it lose control.

Emily Slade: Do you really find that your time is like crunched or is it just like about prioritising things?

Matthew Farrow: Yeah, prioritising things. I've recently started getting a little, and also one key piece of advice I would give someone is I'm very easily distracted by things. So I might be doing a task and an e-mail comes through and all of a sudden I forget about that task an hour later, I've come back to it, I've got 10 minutes to do it. So I wanted it an hour ago. So if you're doing something, especially if it's, for a client, finish it, finish your task, and then do the next task after. Obviously, if it's urgent, take on that, but if it's, yeah, learn how to prioritise your time.

Owen-Marshall Jones: Yeah, I was going to say that like a big element for me was having a hobby during my apprenticeship. So it sounds unrelated, but I found that like, I would lean on my hobby quite a lot because like we're saying that you're in work all day, then you might even be doing two to three hours of apprenticeship work sometimes after it. So then either that night or the next day you have a break and you go and go and completely different from your career, go and do a hobby, you go and have fun. I think you have to, I had a steady routine of like I'd go climbing, I'd go climbing three to four times a week and that would sort of keep me going, that knowing I'd have breaks in between work and study and just knowing when there's a cut off. So if you're on a Sunday doing sort of uni work and you've got or college work and you've got work on on Monday morning, then just knowing when to call it quits, basically. So like Sunday afternoon, just say, oh, that is like a protected area where I don't do any work. I don't do college work. I think building that like habit from day one. I think I didn't do that from day one. It took me till year two to realise how important that was. And I think it's quite employer dependent because there was people in my class that didn't do any work in their own time. So they didn't do any work in their own time. They built it all in with their employer. But it depends on the size of your company, it depends on how junior you are. It's so dependent. It depends on how you work. It can change quite a lot throughout the, like a degree apprenticeship can be 4 to 5 years, a level 3 could be 18 months. So things can change, hobbies can change, your interests can change, but I think... Having something that you're interested in outside of your professional is important.

Matthew Farrow: And I think it's well off the back of that. If it is getting too much for you, genuinely communicate. Like no one wants you. Your employer definitely doesn't want you to sit there, you know, tearing your hair out thinking, oh my God, I've got so much to do. Just communicate. Say, look, I really, really, really can't take on all this work at the moment. And what I've had to learn is the art of no. Sometimes a no is just as powerful as a yes, because if someone asked you to do something and you've got it listed long as you're all stuff to do, you know, just because you're an apprentice doesn't mean you have to say yes to everything. You know, you're already taken on a lot. So yeah, learn to be numb, maybe not of no, but of managing your time, you know, it's okay to be like, no, or don't say no, just say, look, I can do that for you, but maybe in a week or two weeks or three weeks, and then at least you're set in a realistic time span and don't over promise and under deliver. So you obviously we're in a similar situation. Well, I'm currently doing my apprenticeship, you've finished it. What's the best piece of advice you could give someone now? Maybe not even, maybe not even apply for apprenticeships, maybe someone that's during their apprenticeship now, what would you say to them?

Owen-Marshall Jones: I'd just say for me, it was like being habitual. So form the habits from day one, and if it's not from day one, form it as soon as you can Monday morning. Don't sort of postpone things. So like you say about the assignments will get harder. So if you build a habit from day one or as early as you can of like not leaving it till the day before, not leaving it till week one, then it'll sort of have a domino effect. Whereas if you've got in the habit of sort of like leaving stuff sporadic. And then by the time you get to that final year, it's too late to break the habit. You've built your lifestyle around and out. So I think, yeah, don't let it stack up because like we're saying, in year one, the assignments or the tasks you've been off might seem quite easy and they might seem sort of below you, but then out of nowhere they'll go up. So if you've not got that foundation of timing, frequency and like sort of your habits, then it could have a downer effect further down. Yeah.

Matthew Farrow: And I'd say to answer my own question, I think I said this on the webinar recently and I think one of the things that doesn't get spoken about enough is being able to be yourself in work and demonstrate your personality because there's so much emphasis nowadays on company culture and we want you to be part of our family and it can get a bit tiring when you're like, what does culture even mean? But I think to me, culture means being part of a, being working for an employer where you can totally be yourself and that then at least you're not putting on a front when you're going to work and thinking, I've got to be someone else for the next 8 hours. If you can be yourself and you're appreciated for that, then that is so important to your work and it makes you enjoy your work a lot more. So just demonstrate your personality. Don't be scared to just be you.

Owen-Marshall Jones: Yeah, I was going to say like to do with that as well. I found when I joined, there wasn't a true apprenticeship and like graduate scheme here. So there wasn't a lot of young people I was around and that was the biggest I'd say it's the biggest shock when I started was the lack of like representation my age and you're often around a lot of senior people that you might not be used to outside of your family talking to this sort of age and like seniority. So I think like I know in Jisc we have like good networks of like fine stuff you're interested in like what like the film clubs like we have here like anything books like there'll be other people that have your interests or even if it's like We have like the youth network here, so you meet up with other people your age and sort of bounce off if they're doing an apprenticeship or they've done one because it kind of seemed daunting when you're like the young person in the room or like you're the only one that sort of has the same sort of like humour or anything it can. So I think like just reach out even if someone's not in your part of the business if they're if you think oh. That's another young man that's my age. He might have the same interest as you, it's just forming bonds where outside of your team.

Matthew Farrow: Yeah, it's good to make. Not just have colleagues, have friends. Like if you can make friends at work, that's really important. Definitely makes you, however long you're in your apprenticeship, however long you're with that company, a lot easier.

Owen-Marshall Jones: Yeah, I find the irony is sometimes that the people outside of your team that you actually get on with, on a sort of like a banter level, friendly level.

Matthew Farrow: You've not got that pressure of like, oh, we need to do this. Yeah, we need to do this. Like, it's obviously I'm quite close to my line manager and the wider team, but some people you hear, they're like, oh, I hate my line manager.

Owen-Marshall Jones: Yeah.

Matthew Farrow: Or I'm not supposed to my line manager in months, he doesn't care about me. So, but That might be, you might be sort of thinking, oh, I'm not heard from you in months either. So it's a two way street. They're busy, they're a full time job. And another just bit of advice to give someone starting your apprenticeship and working for a company is what I find most rewarding. One of the most rewarding things about my job is helping apprentices that have started, say, this year. I've done it for a year now, so I've like reached out to all the apprentices and, you know, that's so rewarding to be like that. almost shoulder to lean on, how do I do, what did you do for this part of your uni? And I imagine you didn't have that, like that person, you've been there for them is really important, I think.

Owen-Marshall Jones: Yeah, I was very lucky with that with mine. So in my team, I had Ellie who, she'd done the same course as me, so I was learning from her, but I've actually gone back since I finished, I've gone back to do talks at uni and webinars just because I think you've got to be grateful because I know when I was doing my degree apprenticeship, there was people coming in who were previous students and helping us. So I sort of like return the favour basically because their advice can't help. So I just think mine can too.

Matthew Farrow: And they're good to have a rant with as well because they've been there. They've sat there and thought, oh my God, it's Friday night. I've got an exam. I've got a uni assignment due on Monday. They've been there. Everyone's been there. So have that just need to breathe a bit. Just let out all this. They'll all stress I've had. So yeah, just finding them relationships is really important.

Emily Slade: What would you say the most challenging aspect of it is?

Matthew Farrow: The most challenging aspect is definitely balancing your time. It is a lot, especially when you get put, in my case, I get put on a project and I'm required to give my full time to that project. Obviously, the people that you work for have to be understanding that you have got university and that does have to sort of be equal to the priority you put on your work because obviously you start failing uni. No, that comes back and that's just not what you want to start doing. Another challenge is dealing with the pressure of, your employer's got an expectation of you. need to meet that expectation. They're putting sort of themselves on the line by giving you to a client. So you need to then make sure that you're doing enough or exceeding our expectations. And yeah, so either that is quite challenging.

Owen-Marshall Jones: Yeah, I'd say it's similar, but for me it was more in terms of knowing which is priority. I think I struggled with that a lot. So as you start and uni's at sort of like level 4 grades, like within your degree, I found work was priority. I was putting work first, but then as the grades sort of ramp up, that's when you sort of, you don't know which to prioritise and you don't. Uni becomes a lot harder, a lot like really quick. So that's when sort of the scale's never going to sort of be even 50-50. It will weigh and I think It depends what employee you've got, it depends what role you've got, because although you're an apprenticeship, you might have a slightly more junior role, it depends how big the company is. So I think for me, does the scale sort of change throughout the apprenticeship with which was priority, which was harder? And I know in the final year of mine, the scale had to tip to uni because the grades and it was asking a lot more of me, whereas I'd become senior in my job, but it meant I was more competent and I could sort of like not have to focus on it as much. So yeah, I think it changes throughout an apprenticeship.

Holly Slater: Yeah, of course.

Emily Slade: Let's skip now to the end of you've completed your apprenticeship. What happens next? Are you guaranteed to work within the company that you've been an apprentice for? What what does that end of the process look like?

Holly Slater: If I'm honest, it totally depends. on where you're doing your apprenticeship. So at Jisc, we do offer fixed term contracts. So you will come in, you will do your apprenticeship and then we will come to the end of your apprenticeship and have a look to see whether there is a permanent role in that area. If there's not, we'll have a look to see what other alternative options there are within the company. But we're also very supportive of people who decide just isn't for them and want to look elsewhere and we'll support them on their journey through that as well. So it does depend company to company, some offer fixed term apprenticeships, some offer permanent ones. It's potentially a good question to ask at interview stage, what kind of comes next, whether it's fixed term or permanent, just so that you've got that understanding from the beginning, what's on offer. But If it is a fixed term, I would say don't let that put you off because you learn so much as part of the apprenticeship. It will really set you up to have skills to go into that area or even to go into the next stage. And as well, you might find whatever company you go to, it just doesn't align with your values. You can change completely in two years. You can have a complete lifestyle change and not want to live in the same country or something like that. And want to go and explore life. So, a lot of things can change in two years. So being on a fixed term rather than a permanent isn't always a bad thing. I think it just gives you that opportunity to explore further options that you may not have initially thought about. And as well, if you didn't like the apprenticeship, You don't have to go into a role in that area as well. So there's options there as well.

Emily Slade: And were you offered a fixed term apprenticeship or a permanent apprenticeship?

Owen-Marshall Jones: So it was literally a contract for the four years of the apprenticeship. And then throughout I had conversations with the employer around what my role was looked like at the end, if I can get a role. And with a lot of apprenticeships, and I know with mine, it was a case of depends on budget at the time, it depends on performance, it depends on the business can change a lot in four years. So They said to me at the start, like, we'd love to keep you on at the end, but we can't guarantee it, budget, so yeah. And I have got kept on, so I got lucky in that aspect.

Emily Slade: Moving on from that then, let's say you have been offered a role within the company. Are you then applicable to move up the ranks like any other employee?

Holly Slater: I love this question because I don't necessarily think careers should be linear. I myself have had a bit of a squiggly career and I fully support them. Obviously, if you do come in as an apprentice and you want to move up the racks, that's a possibility within companies. Obviously, the roles might need to be there, or it might be a progression scheme where you come in and after every two years or something, you're promoted. Companies do work differently. But if that's an option that you want to take, absolutely, there's nothing stopping you from, you know, being a senior leader just because you started as an apprenticeship, as an apprentice, sorry. But as well, if you come in and decide, I don't like this area, I don't necessarily like this team or this company isn't necessarily for me, then you know, there's that option to take a sideways step and going into a company and studying towards an apprenticeship will mean that you will get transferable skills that you may be able to take elsewhere, or you may have built rapport or relationships with a different team where you're thinking it's a similar line of work, but not exactly the same, but I'd still like to explore that afterwards. So I would say don't get your head set on having that really linear progression. unless that's really important to you. But be open to exploring different things. I think when I finished university, I just had this idea that I'd be in that kind of role for 30 years or whatever, like I'd just move up and up and up. And that's kind of how the world of work worked. Whereas now, people finishing university or people finishing school or college, whatever, they've got like 40, 50 years of work. What I'm trying to say is don't be hard on yourself to be like, this has to be the news. You can try different things. You can move into different areas and don't feel like, oh, by the time I'm 25, this is what I should have accomplished. Or by the time I'm 30, this is what I should have done. Or this is where I should be because that's where everyone else is by the time they're there. Don't compare. Everyone's got a different journey.

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